Thursday 1 December 2005
8DDD ABC Local Radio
Julia Christensen interviews Frank Harris

It's been claimed that more than 130 truckloads of nuclear waste will be immediately transported to the Northern Territory once a national nuclear waste facility is built by the Federal Government, which seems pretty much inevitable. Frank Harris is the Senior Health Physicist from the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation, ANSTO.

REPTR Frank good morning.
HARRIS Good morning Julia.

REPTR How much waste will fit into 130 truckloads?
HARRIS Okay well first of all there is a lot of material there, a lot of it actually isn't nuclear related, a lot of it is actually soil which has been developed over many years from some CSIRO facilities in Melbourne. But there is also a range of…

REPTR …Soil that is radioactive?
HARRIS Some of it is, some of it isn't. What it is…

REPTR …So why does that have to be disposed of in a nuclear waste facility?
HARRIS Because when the soil was gathered up many years ago, it was gathered up and put into drums and all the material was highlighted as containing low levels of naturally occurring radioactive material. As such, all the material was classified as low-level material and will be shipped with the rest of the shipments.

REPTR But there's a lot of the Territory that contains low level naturally occurring radioactive material, are you saying this is all going to end up in the dump?
HARRIS What it is, is once it's reached a certain level it's classified as requiring extra precautions and that's what's happened with this level. But there is also other material which is sourced from our facilities here at ANSTO, a lot of this material is once again, very low level, it contains things such as gloves, overshoes, tissues, that kind of material which was generated when we make our radiopharmaceuticals.

REPTR So how much waste will fit into 130 truckloads, can you give us a figure?
HARRIS It's about 2,000 cubic metres.

REPTR 2,000 cubic metres. And how will it get here?
HARRIS That hasn't been defined, a lot of it as you're probably aware, we're currently going through a site selection process at the moment. And depending on the location of the site and the infrastructure around it, it will be then determined whether what's the most appropriate way to transport that material safely to that site.

REPTR But I imagine the transportation is a key factor if for instance the Katherine site is seen to be the preferred site, how would the radioactive waste get there?
HARRIS Okay well like as I said, there is no preferred site at this stage.

REPTR No but I'm just saying hypothetically, I'm sure the people of Katherine would like to know and indeed the people of Darwin how it would get there if it was going.
HARRIS Okay the two major options of course will be either road or rail. Now radioactive material is actually shipped all around Australia currently with an extremely high level of safety and or in full compliance with the international legislation coming from the international atomic energy agency. Now when the material, before it shipped, it will be inspected, it will be checked to ensure that it complies fully with the international codes and then it will be shipped either by road or rail almost likely to the site. Now this will be done in such a manner to ensure the safety and also to minimise any inconveniences from truck movement or whatever of this material.

REPTR So it wouldn't come through the Port or that's still an option?
HARRIS It's a potential option but probably unlikely for the low level material given these current locations.

REPTR Where is it being held at the moment?
HARRIS A large proportion of the material is currently being held at Woomerra in South Australia and the other major component is held here at ANSTO in Sydney.

REPTR Alright so that's the 130 truckloads that are ready to roll, after that, how much more would follow and how regularly?
HARRIS Okay well basically once you've got the initial material in, the actual shipments are very small and probably wouldn't be very frequent, you're looking at maybe a generation of three truckloads per year. And whether that was done on an annual basis or it was stockpiled for five years and then kind of have a shipment of just fifteen trucks, that would probably be one of the options which will be discovered.

REPTR We've also heard that there is a large amount of reprocess spent fuel rods in France that is due to come back to Australia, how much is there Frank?
HARRIS Okay the amount of material actually coming back is not what we'd call a large level, we're talking about 30 cubic metres or thereabouts, which would be classified as intermediate level waste. Australia does not actually have any high level waste, its very strict criteria which are governed internationally is what is our radioactive waste is defined as. And what we have is intermediate level waste, which would be coming back, but you're talking about relatively small volumes of material.

REPTR So this was high level, the spent fuel rods that has been reprocessed and then becomes intermediate level, is that correct?
HARRIS No it isn't quite correct because it was never actually classified as high-level waste at any time. To be high level waste it's got to be first of all obviously a waste form and second it's got to be actually generating heat. Now the material, which we'll be receiving, doesn't meet that criteria, therefore it's classified as intermediate level waste, and that's a very kind of almost cast iron definition within the international community of what these levels mean.

REPTR So what is this radioactive life?
HARRIS The radioactive life is of the order of hundreds to thousands of years, which is the reason why for the intermediate level waste, we're not looking at a disposal option at this stage. What we are simply looking at is a surface store where the material can be held into the medium term in a safe manner, continually inspected and continually having a high level of safety attached to it.

REPTR When you say hundreds 'to' thousands of years are you talking about hundreds 'of' thousands of years?
HARRIS No hundreds 'to' thousands of years.

REPTR How many thousands?
HARRIS Well it depends on the exact form of the waste and depending on the material, it does vary, like there are some of the intermediate level waste, there's such things as industrial gauges, which have a half life of only about 30 years. Some of the material coming back with regards to the reprocessed fuel, which you mentioned in France, will have a half life in the thousands of years.

REPTR How many thousands of years - are we talking about hundreds of thousands?
HARRIS No, for that material…

REPTR …Can you give us a figure, it's sounding a bit rubbery at the moment.
HARRIS Well I can't give an exact figure because it all depends on the exact form of the waste and…

REPTR …Well we're talking about the reprocessed spent fuel rods…
HARRIS …Yeah…

REPTR …I mean you know the science obviously…
HARRIS …Yes I do, well I hope so anyway. No, basically the material coming back can have different amounts, depending on what kind of fuel it was from, whether it was from the materials sourced early in the high half life or later in high half life as to what its half life is. But generally it'll be of the order of about two to three thousand years of half life for the entire material.

REPTR Once the decision is made about the location, how long will it take for the dump to be built and those 130 truckloads to hit the highway?
HARRIS Okay the actual construction of the repository or to store, and both options are being considered at this stage, except for the intermediate level waste where only a store option is being considered, is actually a very, very small period of time. Like construction would likely take of the order of a year or thereabouts. Before we can begin any of that we've got to go through a very, very intensive regulatory framework, which covers environmental and safety aspects, and that period of time is likely to exceed five years before we can even get to the stage of effectively turning a sod of soil on the facility.

REPTR Frank you visited the Territory and been to the potential waste sites, there have been concerns raised in the community and in Territory Parliament that the Fisher's Ridge site near Katherine has large sinkholes which would make it very dangerous for this sort of storage, what's your response?
HARRIS Okay well this is what we're trying to discover during the site investigations. Basically all three sites which have been earmarked are going to be looked at from a scientific point of view, we're going to go through, we're going to undergo…

REPTR …Hasn't that been done already?
HARRIS No, what it's been is these sites were determined on the basis of meeting general criteria. What we're doing now is going in and doing the intensive studies which are necessary to determine whether the site will be able to be, are susceptible. And if for example we found evidence of substance on a particular site, then that would obviously be taken into account when we judge whether that site was acceptable. And this goes for whether or not there is any other factor if there was say expression of surface water or something like that, obviously that would be taken into account in determining if the site is susceptible, if it isn't it won't be chosen.

REPTR Frank thanks for your time.
HARRIS Thank you very much.